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	<title>Comments on: Some observations</title>
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	<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/</link>
	<description>The official website of the New York-based composer Nico Muhly.</description>
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		<title>By: Haydé</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-632</link>
		<dc:creator>Haydé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-632</guid>
		<description>I wish I had never found out about the existence of the Croissan&#039;wich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had never found out about the existence of the Croissan&#8217;wich.</p>
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		<title>By: Nissim Schaul</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-630</link>
		<dc:creator>Nissim Schaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-630</guid>
		<description>Thanks Michael V. - &quot;The â€˜incorrectâ€™ syllable emphasis of a French or English word comes down to a matter of cultural representation by the speaker, and it is not taken as a blatant misrepresentation of the language of origin.&quot; - is pretty much what I wanted to say.

Here&#039;s a question: how annoying would it be if I went around talking about how I live in &quot;Paree?&quot;  Mispronouncing &quot;Paris&quot; is hardened into the language.  Not so many people talk about Vèneto, and not everyone writes it with that diacritic.

I admit that pronouncing foreign words in an English fashion is a struggle for me, too.  My instincts are to pronounce everything foreign as perfectly as possible.  It appeals to my know-it-all-ness, and even to my sense that as a musician, I should have a great ear and be able to say things as I hear the natives say them.  But I&#039;ve been training myself to say Roo-en when speaking in English, because I&#039;ve discovered that not only is it kind of irritating to non-Francophones to tell them &quot;I&#039;m thinking about taking a trip up to &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouen&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;[ÊwÉ‘Ìƒ]&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; next week,&quot; but that, actually, they won&#039;t even understand what town I&#039;m talking about visiting.

All of which is to say that I don&#039;t think people should be judged based on how they pronounce foreign words, and that maybe the cultural value we put on &quot;proper&quot; pronunciation is misplaced.  It may have to do with our post-modern search for authenticity, but that&#039;s a way bigger subject.

Nevertheless, I must say that my favorite BBC-ism is definitely Ni-ker-a-gyoo-a.  Takes the dictate to pronounce every vowel in Spanish a little too far...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Michael V. &#8211; &#8220;The â€˜incorrectâ€™ syllable emphasis of a French or English word comes down to a matter of cultural representation by the speaker, and it is not taken as a blatant misrepresentation of the language of origin.&#8221; &#8211; is pretty much what I wanted to say.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a question: how annoying would it be if I went around talking about how I live in &#8220;Paree?&#8221;  Mispronouncing &#8220;Paris&#8221; is hardened into the language.  Not so many people talk about Vèneto, and not everyone writes it with that diacritic.</p>
<p>I admit that pronouncing foreign words in an English fashion is a struggle for me, too.  My instincts are to pronounce everything foreign as perfectly as possible.  It appeals to my know-it-all-ness, and even to my sense that as a musician, I should have a great ear and be able to say things as I hear the natives say them.  But I&#8217;ve been training myself to say Roo-en when speaking in English, because I&#8217;ve discovered that not only is it kind of irritating to non-Francophones to tell them &#8220;I&#8217;m thinking about taking a trip up to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouen" rel="nofollow"><i>[ÊwÉ‘Ìƒ]</i></a> next week,&#8221; but that, actually, they won&#8217;t even understand what town I&#8217;m talking about visiting.</p>
<p>All of which is to say that I don&#8217;t think people should be judged based on how they pronounce foreign words, and that maybe the cultural value we put on &#8220;proper&#8221; pronunciation is misplaced.  It may have to do with our post-modern search for authenticity, but that&#8217;s a way bigger subject.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I must say that my favorite BBC-ism is definitely Ni-ker-a-gyoo-a.  Takes the dictate to pronounce every vowel in Spanish a little too far&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-626</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-626</guid>
		<description>Amanda Mae:

Regarding &quot;Himalayas&quot;:

I know a well-informed American (he&#039;s lived in India and speaks Bengali) who uses the pronunciation &quot;him-AHL-yahs.&quot;

&lt;em&gt;Nico responds: Yeah, see, this is one of those things where you just check out the IPA.  hÉª&#039;mÉ‘lijÉ™.  Although I have desi-tastic friends who put the accent other places, too, so who the hell knows.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amanda Mae:</p>
<p>Regarding &#8220;Himalayas&#8221;:</p>
<p>I know a well-informed American (he&#8217;s lived in India and speaks Bengali) who uses the pronunciation &#8220;him-AHL-yahs.&#8221;</p>
<p><em>Nico responds: Yeah, see, this is one of those things where you just check out the IPA.  hÉª&#8217;mÉ‘lijÉ™.  Although I have desi-tastic friends who put the accent other places, too, so who the hell knows.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Kirsten</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-625</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-625</guid>
		<description>Basically your Vèneto friend was obeying (and possibly thinking himself quite knowledgeable about) the basic pronunciation rules of Italian, which usually puts stress on the penultimate syllable. But no rules without exceptions, in proper names as well as in ordinary words. So we have LombardÃ­a, but Ã™mbria, and signorÃ­a, but baldÃ²ria. 
Foreign languages are tricky, that is one of their charms! And foreigners speaking foreign languages are sometimes given to hypercorrections, which is why we have phenomena like the French or Italians saying: e his hill today. 
One can observe, and be amused or annoyed. I prefer being amused, and in addition these mistakes often show you something about the grammatical or phonetic principles of the languages in question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically your Vèneto friend was obeying (and possibly thinking himself quite knowledgeable about) the basic pronunciation rules of Italian, which usually puts stress on the penultimate syllable. But no rules without exceptions, in proper names as well as in ordinary words. So we have LombardÃ­a, but Ã™mbria, and signorÃ­a, but baldÃ²ria.<br />
Foreign languages are tricky, that is one of their charms! And foreigners speaking foreign languages are sometimes given to hypercorrections, which is why we have phenomena like the French or Italians saying: e his hill today.<br />
One can observe, and be amused or annoyed. I prefer being amused, and in addition these mistakes often show you something about the grammatical or phonetic principles of the languages in question.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-623</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-623</guid>
		<description>My fav is BBC middle east coverage.  They&#039;re all &quot;HA-mis&quot; and &quot;HEZ-buh-luh&quot; and &quot;LE-buh-nun&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My fav is BBC middle east coverage.  They&#8217;re all &#8220;HA-mis&#8221; and &#8220;HEZ-buh-luh&#8221; and &#8220;LE-buh-nun&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Vincent</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-622</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Vincent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-622</guid>
		<description>Words come from a cultural perspective, and are coloured as such. Just look at the way I spell &#039;coloured&#039;, and not &#039;colored&#039;. It tells you , the reader, something about my background (Canadian? British? Australian?)

In Canada, (especially in provinces such as Quebec, Ontario and New Brunswick) we hear both French and English everyday, and differences in linguistic pronunciation (including pronouns) are common place.

The &#039;incorrect&#039; syllable emphasis of a French or English word comes down to a mater of cultural representation by the speaker, and it is not taken as a blatant misrepresentation of the language of origin.

However, this wasn&#039;t always the case in Canada. I remember walking around Montrealâ€™s Plateau in the early 1990&#039;s and being yelled at right in the street for speaking French with my obvious English accent. With the French/English clashes in Quebec, it was a tense time. In order to get along, the status quo had to change. Things like linguistic tolerance became paramount, and linguistic preference became synonymous with one&#039;s cultural background. This also included one&#039;s pronunciation, whereby &#039;correcting&#039; it, is generally seen as an act of aggression and linguistic intolerance.

In Canada, expecting everyone to pronounce words the same way, infers the &#039;value&#039; of cultural homogenization, and in a country with two official languages, this has little merit.

I must admit, I sometimes snicker when an English speaker pronounce &quot;Rimbaud&quot; as &quot;Rambo&quot;. But itâ€™s equally endearing to hear a Frenchman say: can â€œI ear with my hearsâ€.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Words come from a cultural perspective, and are coloured as such. Just look at the way I spell &#8216;coloured&#8217;, and not &#8216;colored&#8217;. It tells you , the reader, something about my background (Canadian? British? Australian?)</p>
<p>In Canada, (especially in provinces such as Quebec, Ontario and New Brunswick) we hear both French and English everyday, and differences in linguistic pronunciation (including pronouns) are common place.</p>
<p>The &#8216;incorrect&#8217; syllable emphasis of a French or English word comes down to a mater of cultural representation by the speaker, and it is not taken as a blatant misrepresentation of the language of origin.</p>
<p>However, this wasn&#8217;t always the case in Canada. I remember walking around Montrealâ€™s Plateau in the early 1990&#8242;s and being yelled at right in the street for speaking French with my obvious English accent. With the French/English clashes in Quebec, it was a tense time. In order to get along, the status quo had to change. Things like linguistic tolerance became paramount, and linguistic preference became synonymous with one&#8217;s cultural background. This also included one&#8217;s pronunciation, whereby &#8216;correcting&#8217; it, is generally seen as an act of aggression and linguistic intolerance.</p>
<p>In Canada, expecting everyone to pronounce words the same way, infers the &#8216;value&#8217; of cultural homogenization, and in a country with two official languages, this has little merit.</p>
<p>I must admit, I sometimes snicker when an English speaker pronounce &#8220;Rimbaud&#8221; as &#8220;Rambo&#8221;. But itâ€™s equally endearing to hear a Frenchman say: can â€œI ear with my hearsâ€.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-621</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-621</guid>
		<description>I think we English tend to steam-roller pronunciation, for the most part, the way we steam-shipped round the world in centuries gone by, adding new countries to our Empire. We have the same Empire-building attitude to our language. Consider: a few years ago, a German beer called LÃ¶wenbrÃ¤u (pronounced something like ler-ven-broy) was extremely popular here. But no-one, seriously, would *ever* have dreamed of going into an English pub/bar and asking for anything other than &quot;low-un-brow&quot;. Asking for &quot;ler-ven-broy&quot;, would have been an act of suicidal embarrassment. So perhaps the accents are not so much elbowed to one side (or the other) as just ignorantly trampled underfoot - and new emphasis appears, by default, simply from the spelling?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we English tend to steam-roller pronunciation, for the most part, the way we steam-shipped round the world in centuries gone by, adding new countries to our Empire. We have the same Empire-building attitude to our language. Consider: a few years ago, a German beer called LÃ¶wenbrÃ¤u (pronounced something like ler-ven-broy) was extremely popular here. But no-one, seriously, would *ever* have dreamed of going into an English pub/bar and asking for anything other than &#8220;low-un-brow&#8221;. Asking for &#8220;ler-ven-broy&#8221;, would have been an act of suicidal embarrassment. So perhaps the accents are not so much elbowed to one side (or the other) as just ignorantly trampled underfoot &#8211; and new emphasis appears, by default, simply from the spelling?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-619</guid>
		<description>In defense of those who are not fortunate enough to be able to travel widely and hear words rendered by native speakers, you often have to go with a best guess with certain words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In defense of those who are not fortunate enough to be able to travel widely and hear words rendered by native speakers, you often have to go with a best guess with certain words.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Mae</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-618</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Mae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-618</guid>
		<description>Speaking of NPR assholery that left me floundering linguistically, I was listening to something about Tibet, and the American(?) man they were interviewing kept saying &quot;hem-all-Yi-Ahs&quot; instead of &quot;Him-uh-lay-uhs&quot;.

Is this normal?  He did it about eight times, and otherwise had no discernable accent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of NPR assholery that left me floundering linguistically, I was listening to something about Tibet, and the American(?) man they were interviewing kept saying &#8220;hem-all-Yi-Ahs&#8221; instead of &#8220;Him-uh-lay-uhs&#8221;.</p>
<p>Is this normal?  He did it about eight times, and otherwise had no discernable accent.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-617</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-617</guid>
		<description>I love this post, but I want to rise -- or sit -- in defense of the elderly.  We, at least many of us, did not travel easily to other countries.  We studied Latin or at most French in high school from teachers who were not themselves sensitive to intonation.  When Nico&#039;s generation is my age they will have had a very different lifetime of linguistic sensitivity than I had. (But their hearing may not be any better.) I don&#039;t think I am a Deliberate Mispronouncer but it has been pointed out to me that when I try to speak Cockney I sound Polish.

Couldn&#039;t Venèto be a reasonable extrapolation from Venezia?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this post, but I want to rise &#8212; or sit &#8212; in defense of the elderly.  We, at least many of us, did not travel easily to other countries.  We studied Latin or at most French in high school from teachers who were not themselves sensitive to intonation.  When Nico&#8217;s generation is my age they will have had a very different lifetime of linguistic sensitivity than I had. (But their hearing may not be any better.) I don&#8217;t think I am a Deliberate Mispronouncer but it has been pointed out to me that when I try to speak Cockney I sound Polish.</p>
<p>Couldn&#8217;t Venèto be a reasonable extrapolation from Venezia?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-614</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-614</guid>
		<description>Apropos of the G: When my daughter was four, I took her to a kids&#039; program at the art museum. A docent handed out paper and colored pencils and invited the children to copy anything they liked. Rather than copy a painting, my daughter copied the label of a painting: Charles Willson Peale. 1787. . . . I thought it was a smart, subversive move on her part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos of the G: When my daughter was four, I took her to a kids&#8217; program at the art museum. A docent handed out paper and colored pencils and invited the children to copy anything they liked. Rather than copy a painting, my daughter copied the label of a painting: Charles Willson Peale. 1787. . . . I thought it was a smart, subversive move on her part.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Bacon</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Bacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-607</guid>
		<description>Regardless of how to best pronounce her name, I would like to take a year off of my Ph.D. to study composition with M.I.A.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of how to best pronounce her name, I would like to take a year off of my Ph.D. to study composition with M.I.A.</p>
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		<title>By: Nissim Schaul</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-606</link>
		<dc:creator>Nissim Schaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-606</guid>
		<description>You actually bring up an odd question - why do we in English value the foreign-language pronunciation of foreign words in the first place?  It&#039;s a socio-linguistic thing, not at all a given.  In French, foreign words are pronounced &lt;i&gt;as spelled&lt;/i&gt;.  My favorite example is Dante.  It would be simple enough to add an accent aigue to that e, and you&#039;d pronounce it roughly as in Italian.  But no, that won&#039;t do, and the man&#039;s name is shortened to one syllable.  The z in Mozart (and Nazi, for that matter) has no &quot;ts&quot; sound.  Kind of like you said it when you were 6, the first time you read it aloud, before someone corrected you.

Beethoven is apparently unpronounceable, so the French say something like &quot;Bétove.&quot;

I think the prestige associated with pronouncing words &quot;correctly&quot; - even though we&#039;re still really really far off, what with our diphthongs and wacky r&#039;s - has to do with English&#039;s polyglot nature.  We&#039;re used to importing any useful combination of letters we see, and have been since the language was born in like 1100.  But that also contributes to the language&#039;s unpredictable variations in pronunciation (how were you supposed to know that that z was really a ts?!)

I really like that koala, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You actually bring up an odd question &#8211; why do we in English value the foreign-language pronunciation of foreign words in the first place?  It&#8217;s a socio-linguistic thing, not at all a given.  In French, foreign words are pronounced <i>as spelled</i>.  My favorite example is Dante.  It would be simple enough to add an accent aigue to that e, and you&#8217;d pronounce it roughly as in Italian.  But no, that won&#8217;t do, and the man&#8217;s name is shortened to one syllable.  The z in Mozart (and Nazi, for that matter) has no &#8220;ts&#8221; sound.  Kind of like you said it when you were 6, the first time you read it aloud, before someone corrected you.</p>
<p>Beethoven is apparently unpronounceable, so the French say something like &#8220;Bétove.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the prestige associated with pronouncing words &#8220;correctly&#8221; &#8211; even though we&#8217;re still really really far off, what with our diphthongs and wacky r&#8217;s &#8211; has to do with English&#8217;s polyglot nature.  We&#8217;re used to importing any useful combination of letters we see, and have been since the language was born in like 1100.  But that also contributes to the language&#8217;s unpredictable variations in pronunciation (how were you supposed to know that that z was really a ts?!)</p>
<p>I really like that koala, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Valerie</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-605</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-605</guid>
		<description>I think that English people are not very susceptible to other languages in general, and if they have learned any, it&#039;s usually French, where the accent does not imply emphasis. I&#039;ve been going around saying Mir-O and Gau-DI for ages and no-one is taking a blind bit of notice even if they have just got back from Barcelona.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that English people are not very susceptible to other languages in general, and if they have learned any, it&#8217;s usually French, where the accent does not imply emphasis. I&#8217;ve been going around saying Mir-O and Gau-DI for ages and no-one is taking a blind bit of notice even if they have just got back from Barcelona.</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Mussel</title>
		<link>http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/comment-page-1/#comment-604</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Mussel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nicomuhly.com/news/2008/some-observations/#comment-604</guid>
		<description>My favourite is De-BOO-see for Debussy.  The first time I heard it, I was like....who?  Seriously?  France is 30 miles away people...get it together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favourite is De-BOO-see for Debussy.  The first time I heard it, I was like&#8230;.who?  Seriously?  France is 30 miles away people&#8230;get it together.</p>
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